Call me a lawyer (I am), hence the use of legal terms, but I vote (not that I have control over this) that Red Sox Nation stipulate that the Betts trade was a disaster but also that we're moving on. I feel like we all know it and it's not that useful going forward to dwell on it. Breslow wasn't part of it and his job is to re-make the team today, so let's be forward thinking about how that happens. For this trade, my vote is we just wanted him gone, and we found that his value wasn't very high both because of how teams see his skills and because we did that thing where we told the world we just wanted a guy gone. When you do that you lose all leverage and sometimes to get the guy gone you have to accept that all we're getting back is a bucket of batting cage baseballs. Breslow and Cora might want to think about being a bit more close to the vest about the next player they hate, so when we offer them up in trade teams are forced to ponder offering fair value. Practice the poker face.
I hate to compare people to cars but sales is sales. If you went to a car dealer and the salesperson said "the price on this car is $40,000 - wow is this one a real POS that we haven't been able to get rid of for 8 months" the first thing you'd be doing is offering way below $40k.
I'm not sure there's a whole lot the Red Sox could do about Verdugo's trade value. I think what was out there was gonna be out there. It's not like other teams didn't see the numbers, or that they didn't see the team disciplining the player. Pretending to like him more wasn't, IMO, going to change things. For example, do you think now that after Cora talked up Bobby Dalbec yesterday, a market is going to form for him? I sure don't.
I do think you're right about moving on from the Betts trade, and as time goes on you'll hear less and less about it from me. Especially since Verdugo is now gone, as he was the headlining piece of that deal. That said, there are very few trades in baseball that egregiously bad. Very very few. So when one happens and my team is on the losing side of it, I'm going to mention it for a few years. Also, I don't want to ignore the continuing impact that that trade has on the franchise in my analysis, even if maybe I'm tired of complaining about the deal or I'm cognizant that my readers might not want to rehash it anymore.
Appreciate the thoughtful comment, Jeremy. Thanks.
As long as the Red Sox are perennial basement dwellers and Mookie is a perennial MVP candidate, I won't be moving on. I'm going to go cry in the corner now, thanks.
I see this as the Red Sox double dipping here, as it's not only addition by subtraction for them, but it's also subtraction by addition for the Yankees. Verdugo isn't a completely terrible player but he's also not someone serious about contending should want as a starting corner outfielder.
Not sure I agree, Brian. If his defense holds (good last year, no so much the previous year) he's an above average starter. Pair him with Judge and Juan Soto (good lord) and that's a pretty strong outfield, at least for one season.
I mean, put me in an outfield with Soto and Judge and it would still be an awfully strong outfield. For the record, I'm 46 and haven't played outfield since I was 13.
Obviously he wouldn't be a centerpiece in that group, but I think he'll hit better in NY (the park plays to his swing much better than Fenway does) and he's an above average defender in a corner. Also, it's only one season, so if it works out, maybe NY extends him. If not, they can let him go.
I kinda hate that. Maybe Mookie wanted it, I don't know, but my guy is one of the best defensive right fielders in baseball. Not sure why don't build around that instead of messing with it. Also, the injury history of second basemen entering their 30s isn't particularly good. Maybe that's changed now, at least a little bit, with the new rules against taking out second basemen, but I still don't see it.
Should've used the "Filthy Bones" nickname on Rod Beck when we had him. He would've worn it with pride.
I don't mind the trade but I'm also expecting yet another transitional season so...a guy with one year of team control left who's an intermittent headache, an erratic defender and whose best skill is contact hitting, not losing much sleep over it.
Who could forget about Filthy Bones. His one finger fastball thrown while simultaneously smoking two cigarettes really befuddled hitters in the 30s
While I really enjoy your writing, I think your assessment of the Mookie trade should be updated now that we have a similar trade
The Juan Soto trade is now have a comparable for the Mookie trade. Both are young superstars on the track for inner circle HOF. Would love to be in the universe where we could have both.
Even in retrospect, I would rather have the Mookie package than the package the Padres just got for Soto, which the baseball media views as a far trade, (I will also note Trent Grisham is a solid starting fielder. And is likely worth one of the 6th starters)
Padres received:
1. Tentpole (Michael King): pitcher who has only thrown more than 100 innings only once. Great stuff but significant injury history. With only two years left of control
2. Prospect (Thorpe): 99th overall prospect per MLP pipeline. Viewed as a 45 by fangraphs
3. Two 6th starter types. These kinds of players are a dime a dozen and most frequently end up as RP
While Verdugo never took the step forward, like we hoped, he provided the Red Sox value when he was cheap and now his salary nearly matches his production. We got 4 years of 2 war performance and one great meme (Verdu-go Red Sox). WAR is not the best all end all but Michael King has put only one 2 war season together
Jeter Downs: sometimes prospects bust but at the time he had value. Ranked as high as 44 by MLB pipeline. Would rather take a chance on a ML prospect than a lower regarded pitcher
Connor Wong: Calling him a backup catcher is draconian. He reminds me of Christian Vazquez. We all seemed pretty satisfied with CV for multiple years. Good defense and occasional pop.
David Price: Turned out he was completely washed. Bonus to not paying $32m for a washed pitcher, we got spared the mental anguish of the Boston Media trying to eat him alive while David struggled out of the bullpen.
I know complaining about the trade is more fun but one thing I’ve never heard:
1. How much was one year of Mookie Betts worth? I’d probably have paid $80m of John Henry’s money for one year of Mookie. Subtract this from the salary of $27m for Mookie’s value
2. How much would you have paid at the time for Verdugo’s rights? I’m thinking 5/55
3. How much is a medium caliber SS prospect and a catching prospect worth?
Looking forward to arguing about this trade till the end of time
Call me a lawyer (I am), hence the use of legal terms, but I vote (not that I have control over this) that Red Sox Nation stipulate that the Betts trade was a disaster but also that we're moving on. I feel like we all know it and it's not that useful going forward to dwell on it. Breslow wasn't part of it and his job is to re-make the team today, so let's be forward thinking about how that happens. For this trade, my vote is we just wanted him gone, and we found that his value wasn't very high both because of how teams see his skills and because we did that thing where we told the world we just wanted a guy gone. When you do that you lose all leverage and sometimes to get the guy gone you have to accept that all we're getting back is a bucket of batting cage baseballs. Breslow and Cora might want to think about being a bit more close to the vest about the next player they hate, so when we offer them up in trade teams are forced to ponder offering fair value. Practice the poker face.
I hate to compare people to cars but sales is sales. If you went to a car dealer and the salesperson said "the price on this car is $40,000 - wow is this one a real POS that we haven't been able to get rid of for 8 months" the first thing you'd be doing is offering way below $40k.
I'm not sure there's a whole lot the Red Sox could do about Verdugo's trade value. I think what was out there was gonna be out there. It's not like other teams didn't see the numbers, or that they didn't see the team disciplining the player. Pretending to like him more wasn't, IMO, going to change things. For example, do you think now that after Cora talked up Bobby Dalbec yesterday, a market is going to form for him? I sure don't.
I do think you're right about moving on from the Betts trade, and as time goes on you'll hear less and less about it from me. Especially since Verdugo is now gone, as he was the headlining piece of that deal. That said, there are very few trades in baseball that egregiously bad. Very very few. So when one happens and my team is on the losing side of it, I'm going to mention it for a few years. Also, I don't want to ignore the continuing impact that that trade has on the franchise in my analysis, even if maybe I'm tired of complaining about the deal or I'm cognizant that my readers might not want to rehash it anymore.
Appreciate the thoughtful comment, Jeremy. Thanks.
As long as the Red Sox are perennial basement dwellers and Mookie is a perennial MVP candidate, I won't be moving on. I'm going to go cry in the corner now, thanks.
1. Someone wanted Verdugo gone like yesterday.
2. Mookie wasn't, no matter what going to sign for us.
1. Yes.
2. I will not be baited like this.
Sox trade of Sparky Lyle to the Yanks was a big and stupid deal in 1972
Thanks, Matt.
The Red Sox weren’t going to extend Verdugo and he had issues with Cora. No problem at all with the deal.
He’s a good player, but not THAT good.
I see this as the Red Sox double dipping here, as it's not only addition by subtraction for them, but it's also subtraction by addition for the Yankees. Verdugo isn't a completely terrible player but he's also not someone serious about contending should want as a starting corner outfielder.
Not sure I agree, Brian. If his defense holds (good last year, no so much the previous year) he's an above average starter. Pair him with Judge and Juan Soto (good lord) and that's a pretty strong outfield, at least for one season.
I mean, put me in an outfield with Soto and Judge and it would still be an awfully strong outfield. For the record, I'm 46 and haven't played outfield since I was 13.
Obviously he wouldn't be a centerpiece in that group, but I think he'll hit better in NY (the park plays to his swing much better than Fenway does) and he's an above average defender in a corner. Also, it's only one season, so if it works out, maybe NY extends him. If not, they can let him go.
Why can't we get it right ( in the field)? The Redsox need a 2nd baseman. MOOKIE's now playing 2nd base for the Dodgers.
I kinda hate that. Maybe Mookie wanted it, I don't know, but my guy is one of the best defensive right fielders in baseball. Not sure why don't build around that instead of messing with it. Also, the injury history of second basemen entering their 30s isn't particularly good. Maybe that's changed now, at least a little bit, with the new rules against taking out second basemen, but I still don't see it.
Chaim would never! (Or maybe he would, I don't know)
Yankees fans should be happy that they'll make him shave that beard that would embarrass most 10th graders.
Also, Sparky Lyle for Danny Cater was a pretty significant Sox/Yankees deal. It was not a great deal for the Sox, to say the least.
The actual history of Red Sox and Yankees trades is pretty one-sided in NY's favor. Thus I decided to invent a deal instead.
Should've used the "Filthy Bones" nickname on Rod Beck when we had him. He would've worn it with pride.
I don't mind the trade but I'm also expecting yet another transitional season so...a guy with one year of team control left who's an intermittent headache, an erratic defender and whose best skill is contact hitting, not losing much sleep over it.
They can't sign Juan Soto until after this coming season, so I'm with you there, Gabe.
Who could forget about Filthy Bones. His one finger fastball thrown while simultaneously smoking two cigarettes really befuddled hitters in the 30s
While I really enjoy your writing, I think your assessment of the Mookie trade should be updated now that we have a similar trade
The Juan Soto trade is now have a comparable for the Mookie trade. Both are young superstars on the track for inner circle HOF. Would love to be in the universe where we could have both.
Even in retrospect, I would rather have the Mookie package than the package the Padres just got for Soto, which the baseball media views as a far trade, (I will also note Trent Grisham is a solid starting fielder. And is likely worth one of the 6th starters)
Padres received:
1. Tentpole (Michael King): pitcher who has only thrown more than 100 innings only once. Great stuff but significant injury history. With only two years left of control
2. Prospect (Thorpe): 99th overall prospect per MLP pipeline. Viewed as a 45 by fangraphs
3. Two 6th starter types. These kinds of players are a dime a dozen and most frequently end up as RP
4. Old Backup catcher
Red Sox received:
1. Starting corner OF with 5 years of control. Had already put together a 2 war season as a rookie. 5 years of Verdugo, at the time, was mentioned in the same vein as being nearly equal to Mookie. https://blogs.fangraphs.com/2019-trade-value-intro-and-honorable-mentions/
While Verdugo never took the step forward, like we hoped, he provided the Red Sox value when he was cheap and now his salary nearly matches his production. We got 4 years of 2 war performance and one great meme (Verdu-go Red Sox). WAR is not the best all end all but Michael King has put only one 2 war season together
Jeter Downs: sometimes prospects bust but at the time he had value. Ranked as high as 44 by MLB pipeline. Would rather take a chance on a ML prospect than a lower regarded pitcher
Connor Wong: Calling him a backup catcher is draconian. He reminds me of Christian Vazquez. We all seemed pretty satisfied with CV for multiple years. Good defense and occasional pop.
David Price: Turned out he was completely washed. Bonus to not paying $32m for a washed pitcher, we got spared the mental anguish of the Boston Media trying to eat him alive while David struggled out of the bullpen.
I know complaining about the trade is more fun but one thing I’ve never heard:
1. How much was one year of Mookie Betts worth? I’d probably have paid $80m of John Henry’s money for one year of Mookie. Subtract this from the salary of $27m for Mookie’s value
2. How much would you have paid at the time for Verdugo’s rights? I’m thinking 5/55
3. How much is a medium caliber SS prospect and a catching prospect worth?
Looking forward to arguing about this trade till the end of time
Here’s an analysis of the deal from the time https://www.baseballtradevalues.com/articles/why-were-high-on-mookie-betts-trade-value